Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Eastsidepilot]

Nice to see a shot of this loco Brian, I built a model of 61648, Eastsidepilot Gallery

Typically a Gresley brake being used along with what looks like BR mk1 stock. I believe the houses in the background are still there.
Not sure if it is the down slow ? as it looks as if it's on the down main as the platform nearest the camera is the up slow and up main, I'm assuming the down slow is behind the loco.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

That's really useful, Col, because Tim may have been wrong - and he's the first to accept this. Please bear in mind that Tim is delving in to his memory for some of this, and his notebooks for the details of when and where he saw certain locos. Anything you can provide to confirm will be useful and I'll change the description.

The background is that, although Tim is a lifelong enthusiast (still working for the GCR at 80 years +) his photos have always been trying to obtain that "perfect image". He was not too interested in the subject vis-a-vis the loco number or precise date but more the image as representative of the moment. He was always trying to create the perfect image which he says he never achieved. We are in the fortunate position of being the arbiters. I believe that, when we get to his later photos we'll see that he achieved his objective. He is his own worst critic.

These photos - several hundred of them - are the earliest so we'll have the opportunity to see how his aims developed over the years from 1954 until the end of steam.

Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

That's really useful, Col, because Tim may have been wrong - and he's the first to accept this. Please bear in mind that Tim is delving in to his memory for some of this, and his notebooks for the details of when and where he saw certain locos. Anything you can provide to confirm will be useful and I'll change the description.



Brian

Brian,
I fully realise that Tim is remembering scenes from way back so not a criticism , just an observation from me. These photo's are all fascinating stuff and the fact that they may not be his best shots doesn't matter
I know it's a lot of work but keep 'em coming.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Not taken as a criticism at all, Col - in fact just the opposite. It's really useful to have corrective info. So thank you.

This'll be a long thread as I have every intention of keeping them coming. They are too good to keep to myself!

B

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
I think I agree with Col, it does look as thought Arsenal is on the down main, rather pleased to see it as it was my Dad's football team. There aren't really slow lines at Witham, up and down platform loops that in LNER times were referred to as the up and down back platform lines, simply because they went around the back of the platforms. Very atmospheric pic though, wish I had been able to see scenes like this but I was 2.
Regards
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Up and down slows start and stop at Shenfield to and from Liverpool street, though to be fair I've also seen them called up and down electric lines, even though all four were electrified at the same time. North of Shenfield is all dual track with loops.

The mains and slow lines follow the 2 + 2 format. Initially the slow lines are on the west side at Shenfield, but switch to the east side at Ilford on a flyover for the final run into Liverpool street.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

..................wish I had been able to see scenes like this but I was 2.
Regards
Martin

Me too, I was -5 months

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Here's another. It's taken an age due to the presence of loads of small dirt, now removed. (Apropos nothing at all, in my early days working for Kodak as a "Technical Correspondent", for which read complaints clerk, I once sent a letter to a customer thanking him for sending his "dirty films". When I was in Customer Service I'm on record as answering the phone after a lunchtime trip to the pub, with a cheery "Good Custernoon. Afterble Service. I was a legend in my own lunchtime.)

Tim's title for this is "Witham Essex up train Easter Monday 1958". There are no specifics for the loco but I suspect it's another B17 - having said which I'm certainly no expert so any corrections to that assumption will be gratefully received.



Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Certainly is another B17 Brian, but we'll never know which one. The only detail I can give is because it has a LNER group standard tender it is probably one of the Darlington built 17/4's.
These loco's were originally built for the N.E. sect of the LNER but were later transferred to Stratford 30a once they had been given clearance for use on the ex G.E.R. lines with the bigger tenders, by which time there were larger turntables and route availability upgrades.

I like the detail of the ground signals and what looks like a missing key from the rail chair on the right of the photo.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Here's the next from Tim. It's described as "Witham Down Parcels 1955". Having checked some of the dates I think we should be a little cautious about relying on them absolutely and use them as a "circa". A couple of the specials which can be identified by their reporting numbers have shown the dates to be a year out - these are yet to be dealt with.

In this case is the consensus that it is actually a parcels train? I believe that the loco is probably a K3 but there's no number to help with the ID - again my lack of knowledge of things Eastern may be letting me down. That vehicle behind the loco also looks rather like a clerestory to me.

Edit: Poss 61973.

K3 61973 was a Lowestoft engine having been allocated there in October 1948. It went on to Norwich Thorpe in January 1959 then Staveley in April 1960, Colwick in June 1962, Lincoln later the same month and Doncaster in October 1962 before withdrawal in November 1962. (SLS). Yeadons record it at Doncaster Works and BR Database that it was disposed of by the year end.



Brian

Just realised that I've forgotten to send the last two to Mickoo for watermarking...... Apologies, Mick. I'll send you a bunch a bit later!

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Brian,
There were quite a few K3's based at Stratford in the early to mid '50's, also at other ex GE sheds, Norwich Thorpe, Yarmouth Sth. Town and Lowestoft. I can give a list of numbers but we'd be guessing which loco this is.
I believe some parcels diagrams ran to Haughley Jct. via Ipswich where stock and parcels were exchanged, although usually at night, for the Norwich route and to Cambridge and Peterborough via Bury St. Ed's.
The coach looks like a Gresley BTK or similar, very often a passenger coach was conveyed in parcels trains.

Enjoying these photo's Brian, they give a real flavour of BR eastern region in the 50's

Col.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Well I reckon the last two numbers are 73 which gives two choices in 1955, 1873 was at March and 1973 was at Lowestoft. A Lowestoft engine seems more likely at Witham than a March one so it could be 61973. Both fascinating phots Brian, you don't see many triple stacked LNER ground signals so that was definitely an added bonus.
Regards
Martin

 

[Peter Insole]

Brian and Col, my first thoughts were that leading coach looked suspiciously like an ECJS btk? I found some pics of similar vehicles, but have not been able to positively identify that particular diagram!

The answer is probably in the book over at Love Lane?!

Pete.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Well I reckon the last two numbers are 73 which gives two choices in 1955, 1873 was at March and 1973 was at Lowestoft. A Lowestoft engine seems more likely at Witham than a March one so it could be 61973. Both fascinating phots Brian, you don't see many triple stacked LNER ground signals so that was definitely an added bonus.
Regards
Martin

Martin,
Having looked at it again I think your right that it is 1973.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Here's the latest, undated but probably, based on other photos in the group, January 1956, entitled by Tim " Witham. Braintree Train Waiting" It's clearly ex-GER LNER F5 2-4-2 tank No 67212. It had been a Stratford engine since new in 1906 and was withdrawn in May 1958. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped in July 1958 (BR Database) and SLS tells us that was at Stratford.



Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

67212 was condemned in '58 having been, possibly, a Stratford engine all it's life. Note the condensing pipes on the tank tops and the bashed Westinghouse pump. I've read somewhere that apparently when the pumps got worn they would sometimes seize up and the crew would use a lump hammer to give it a whack to get it going again !

Again Brian, some nice useful details in the photo, apart from the loco etc., the street lamp fixed to the power lines post up on the street ( immediately above the loco cab roof ), bus stop 'P' sign ? ( Pete ?) , the early tv aerials on the house chimneys, strip lighting under the canopy and concrete running in board on the platform.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the additional comments, Col. I'd not noted them all although the condensing pipework and bashed Westinghouse pump are of note. I can vouch for the use of hammer on the Westinghouse pump - my great uncle was a driver on 02s on the Isle of Wight and commented about the method used to get the pump to function.

These pictures certainly make one appreciate the changes which have occurred in a single lifetime.

Briaaan

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

It will just be the cladding plates which are bashed! If the cylinder was dented it just wouldn't work.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I've read somewhere that apparently when the pumps got worn they would sometimes seize up and the crew would use a lump hammer to give it a whack to get it going again !

I can vouch for the use of hammer on the Westinghouse pump - my great uncle was a driver on 02s on the Isle of Wight and commented about the method used to get the pump to function.

It's one of the reasons why the LBSCR/SR crew used the train staff holder on the cab side to hold the lump hammer as I've portrayed on my E4.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

The Sou' West had nothing to do with they 'Waashinhoose' brakes and stuck to vacuum. However they did fit a few ancient injins with pumps to handle trains off the Auld Enemy (Caledonian Railway)
Ian.